Question for Star Citizen pilots

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Twist vs. Rudder

Poll ended at Wed May 24, 2017 4:27

I prefer a grip with twist axis for ONE hand (left hand) (please explain use-case)
9
10%
I prefer a grip with twist axis for ONE hand (right hand) (please explain use-case)
14
16%
I prefer two grips with twist axes for BOTH hands (please explain use-case)
23
26%
I prefer a set of rudder pedals and NO twist grips (please explain use-case)
24
27%
I prefer a set of rudder pedals, but still like ONE twist grip as well (please explain use-case)
14
16%
I prefer a set of rudder pedals, but still like TWO twist grips as well (please explain use-case)
6
7%
 
Total votes: 90

hon0
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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby hon0 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 22:37

Is it just a Grip or might we see a different base?

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby rrohde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 22:43

There are two bases - the Gunfighter base, and the Gladiator Pro base, with both being customizable with different grips (and for the Gunfighter, the upcoming ECP as well). No other base out there at this time - not in the planning phase, either AFAIK.
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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Caillin » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:47

I'm really glad that VKB are extending the consultation to space-sim western players as well as the Russian sim guys. I'm always dismayed whenever twist is brought up, it's instantly poopooed by the hardcore mil-sim crowd (Russian and western alike) which are generally who the stick manufacturers pay attention to exclusively.

I also agree that twist is pretty useless and a compromise to not owning pedals in the mil-sim market, however the space-sim requirements are very different as can be seen in the comments above.

Kudos to the VKB team for reaching out. I'm just happy that they've obviously had some good success in sales of the Gladiator and Gladiator Pro that they even have at least two additional grips in the pipeline, as I know the cost of molds is prohibitively expensive, and it shows that they are dedicated to putting their revenues straight back into expanding rid products, and not purely chasing net profits like most other companies that leads to a race to the bottom quality-wise.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby abdyman » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:57

Waiting for VKB to make a good space sim flight stick with twist and plenty of buttons on the handle. Also please consider posting this poll on the StarCitizen subreddit for better results

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby rrohde » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:16

Caillin wrote:I'm really glad that VKB are extending the consultation to space-sim western players as well as the Russian sim guys. I'm always dismayed whenever twist is brought up, it's instantly poopooed by the hardcore mil-sim crowd (Russian and western alike) which are generally who the stick manufacturers pay attention to exclusively.


Not necessarily true. As you can see, VKB is trying to build on their modular approach in hardware - i.e., bases and grips & accessories, to serve both clienteles.

Caillin wrote:I also agree that twist is pretty useless and a compromise to not owning pedals in the mil-sim market, however the space-sim requirements are very different as can be seen in the comments above.


That's why we're reaching out to space simmers now. :)

Caillin wrote:Kudos to the VKB team for reaching out. I'm just happy that they've obviously had some good success in sales of the Gladiator and Gladiator Pro that they even have at least two additional grips in the pipeline, as I know the cost of molds is prohibitively expensive, and it shows that they are dedicated to putting their revenues straight back into expanding rid products, and not purely chasing net profits like most other companies that leads to a race to the bottom quality-wise.


Agreed! VKB is positioning itself to make that happen.
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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby rtmoose » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:34

voted dual stick with pedals, no twist axes at all.

what i REALLY want to see is for the left handed stick to have an analog dual axis (just like the right stick) but with a throttle style grip.

my ideal flight setup would be as follows:

right stick (traditional joystick grip) : pitch/yaw
pedals: rudder - roll, left toe brake - strafe down, right toe brake - strafe up
left stick (throttle grip) : longitudinal / lateral strafe

this puts all 6 degrees of freedom onto separate inputs that can never interfere with each other or your ability to aim.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby dayreach » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:37

A bit late, but my preferred set up is right handed stick with twist, paired with a throttle with a analog stick on it such as the CH throttle or thrustmaster FCS throttle.

The idea of a throttle with a twist axis (as opposed to poorly located rocker switches like on it the old saitek hotas) does some interesting, but I'd imagine it would require a rather large base in order to fit that and the actual throttle movement in.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby LukasP » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:44

Nowhere near Renegade Squadron performance, but here is my 0.02$

I fly Gladiator Pro (Yaw+Pitch)+T-Rudder Pedals Mk.IV (Fwd/Back)+ X52 on left(up/dn+left-right+roll) with throttle aside

In my opinion you need at least one twist to get full 6dof wit T-rudders.

Outside that, KG grip looks cool but lacks accessible buttons. Base mounted ones are useless in VR or any kind of combat situation. (would like to see at least another hat and more buttons on it for all the binds)

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby demoneclipse » Thu Jan 26, 2017 15:00

Even though I ended up resorting to pedals because I use a HOSAM/HOMAS setup and couldn't find a stick with twist and analog thumbstick that isn't crap, I believe that it is important to consider what kind of players is the target.

Proper space-sims that use 6dof is only recently becoming more popular and it is likely to significantly grow its player base in the next few years. As such, while currently experient pilots will appreciate using pedals because they often come from plane or helicopter simulation backgrounds, completely new pilots that join space simulation now will, very often, avoid pedals and are likely to prefer twist controls. That leads to the question: who is the target audience? All the new players that will be buying sticks or upgrading their entry level hardware or experienced pilots that already owns pedals and very likely a Warthog? If the target is the new audience that might move into using a stick or upgrading their first stick, then I can't see someone buying an expensive high quality stick - like VKB usually makes - that delivers less functionality than a T16000M.

My setup:

- T16000M left hand: absolutely love it for horizontal movement and roll. Only things missing are: metal components, analog thumbstick and two stage triggers.

- Mouse right hand: used for pitch and yaw. Provides great gimbal use and flying control when combined with the stick.

- Pedals: exclusively used for staffing up and down. I hate having to use this but it was the only feasible way to get this extra analog input. I am considering modding an Xbox controller to get rid of it in case no stick with this functionality shows up (the only currently available with twist and thumbstick seems to be the Saitek, which is right hand only and made of toy-grade material).

I hope VKB comes up with a stick that can be bought for right and left hand (doesn't have to be customisable like the T16000M) and an analog Thumbstick similar to Xbox controller. Such hardware would be unique, as the only high quality device with these features. For a simple right hand high quality stick with X and Y axis we already the Warthog.

All in all it comes to the target audience.

IMHO, as I focus on space simulation with 6dof - I hope a true space stick would be born for the next generation.

Best of luck VKB!

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Goloith » Thu Jan 26, 2017 15:25

I think I'd be doing a drastic disservice to everyone if I did not voice my concern with the opinions & poll results here.

Renegade Squadron and 11th Hour, the two top PvP organizations heavily rely on twist, whether it's in the right or left hand. It's one of the reasons we downright slaughter everyone in SC and in ED. I'm talking going 14-0 or even better.

Majority of the SC & ED community come from a simmers background so they don't necessarily understand how important twist can be. A lot of the bias they have against twist is that manufacturer do a HORRIBLE job at it by having low resistance, which in the heat of battle can be activated by accident. Even the Non-Pro Gladiator has a horrible twist in terms of resistance. The Saitek X-55 / X-56 however has a very good twist that has heavily resistance so you can't accidentally activate it. That being said, Saitek build quality is horrible and as a result I have snapped the twist on two of them after extended use.

Right now there are a lot of options for high quality non-twist joysticks, but there is no high quality twist sticks on the market. Make an incredible high twist stick or a heavy duty twist adapter with high resistance and you'll change the way people feel about twist.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Thedude493 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 18:29

I have to agree with Goloith. I have been looking for a high quality twist stick for a long time. I'm actually using a microsoft force feedback sidewinder pro currently. It's great in every regard except it's lack of buttons.

If a high quality twist stick gets made, then many people may realize how valuable it can be. It's also a lot more versatile for people who can not use pedals, or dislike pedals.

I personally have a lot more fine motor control in my hands on a twist stick than I do in my feet with pedals. This isn't an issue with flight sims, but it absolutely is an issue in space sims where you really need all three primary axes on the stick itself.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby nrage147 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 19:29

Goloith wrote:A lot of the bias they have against twist is that manufacturer do a HORRIBLE job at it by having low resistance, which in the heat of battle can be activated by accident. Even the Non-Pro Gladiator has a horrible twist in terms of resistance. The Saitek X-55 / X-56 however has a very good twist that has heavily resistance so you can't accidentally activate it. That being said, Saitek build quality is horrible and as a result I have snapped the twist on two of them after extended use.

I used an X-55 for about a year and broke the grey hat control within 6 months, twice. But, I would have to be twisting the absolute heck out of it to snap it. I suspect I am much lighter on my controls than you are, perhaps this is because I don't do any PvP (just not interested TBH) but I have also be consciously trying to use only as much force as necessary and no more. I have a martial arts background and from experience maximum speed and precision comes with less tension so that's what I was going for. Also, it helped the RSI/OOS in my hands and forearms to not be gripping everything like my life depended on it.

From the X-55 I went to a Cobra Defender M5 which has to be the lightest stick and twist on the market I suspect. I used it for a while and really liked it, it has definitely trained me to be even lighter on my controls than ever before. The other big difference was an ergonomic one, for me with my med/small hands the X-55 stick is just too chunky to be comfortable and this in turn hampers application of twist also as you cannot get a decent grip on it.

I have since upgraded the M5 to the Gladiator (non-pro) and this has made me realise that the Cobra is actually "too light" as it provides little to no haptic feedback and this feedback is very useful to gauge just where you are on the axis from feel alone. I think the twist resistance on the Gladiator is just about perfect, for me personally, and I wouldn't want more resistance there.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby KallenStadtfeld_SC » Thu Jan 26, 2017 21:12

Goloith wrote:I think I'd be doing a drastic disservice to everyone if I did not voice my concern with the opinions & poll results here.

Renegade Squadron and 11th Hour, the two top PvP organizations heavily rely on twist, whether it's in the right or left hand. It's one of the reasons we downright slaughter everyone in SC and in ED. I'm talking going 14-0 or even better.

Majority of the SC & ED community come from a simmers background so they don't necessarily understand how important twist can be. A lot of the bias they have against twist is that manufacturer do a HORRIBLE job at it by having low resistance, which in the heat of battle can be activated by accident. Even the Non-Pro Gladiator has a horrible twist in terms of resistance. The Saitek X-55 / X-56 however has a very good twist that has heavily resistance so you can't accidentally activate it. That being said, Saitek build quality is horrible and as a result I have snapped the twist on two of them after extended use.

Right now there are a lot of options for high quality non-twist joysticks, but there is no high quality twist sticks on the market. Make an incredible high twist stick or a heavy duty twist adapter with high resistance and you'll change the way people feel about twist.



So why is it so many of you guys use twist over something like pedals? What are you using twist for that makes it so important? I'm not so concerned about activating twist. That can just not be mapped. My concern is that if the stick twists while moving the stick, that torque could push my hand/wrist and the stick slightly and decrease precision.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby dayreach » Thu Jan 26, 2017 21:31

KallenStadtfeld_SC wrote:
So why is it so many of you guys use twist over something like pedals? What are you using twist for that makes it so important? I'm not so concerned about activating twist. That can just not be mapped. My concern is that if the stick twists while moving the stick, that torque could push my hand/wrist and the stick slightly and decrease precision.


Nerve damage in my legs makes it rather difficult and uncomfortable to use pedals. Which unfortunately limits me to all of two decent stick options, the t-16000m or the gladiator, both of which are severely limited in buttons and hats.

As for the twist control bleeding into the other stick motions, I find simply giving the twist axis a decent sized deadzone takes care of that.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby nrage147 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 21:42

KallenStadtfeld_SC wrote:My concern is that if the stick twists while moving the stick, that torque could push my hand/wrist and the stick slightly and decrease precision.

A stick with a reasonable amount of resistance on the twist axis does not twist without you applying that torsion force and I don't think it's likely that you're currently twisting on your stick (which doesn't even have a twist axis) under normal pitch/roll motion, right? I guess it's possible that someone who has never used a stick with twist might be applying that torsion force unnecessarily but this just seems unlikely to me. It might be interesting to test the theory, all you need is some software monitoring that axis and sounding a buzzer when it gets input.. I'd like to try that.

dayreach wrote:As for the twist control bleeding into the other stick motions, I find simply giving the twist axis a decent sized deadzone takes care of that.

I don't even need the deadzone. Mine are set as low as they will go - the Gladiator (non-pro) Mk.I has some return to centre issues on all axis and the deadzone is to counter these, not any accidental input.
Last edited by nrage147 on Thu Jan 26, 2017 21:43, edited 1 time in total.


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