Question for Star Citizen pilots

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Twist vs. Rudder

Poll ended at Wed May 24, 2017 4:27

I prefer a grip with twist axis for ONE hand (left hand) (please explain use-case)
I prefer a grip with twist axis for ONE hand (right hand) (please explain use-case)
I prefer two grips with twist axes for BOTH hands (please explain use-case)
I prefer a set of rudder pedals and NO twist grips (please explain use-case)
I prefer a set of rudder pedals, but still like ONE twist grip as well (please explain use-case)
I prefer a set of rudder pedals, but still like TWO twist grips as well (please explain use-case)
Total votes: 90

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby StarLordRick » Fri Mar 16, 2018 14:48

azmodiuz wrote:man this twist adapter can not come soon enough.

If any other company comes out with a viable high quality gimbals and stick and twist I would abandon VKB in an instant , so sick of waiting for this shit.

im more sick of waiting for SC to finish ive moved on to other games

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby D_e_l_t_a » Sun Oct 21, 2018 23:26

Personally I use a gladiator mk2 right stick with twist: pitch and yaw on the x and y axis and roll on twist.

Left stick 16000m (would love a left handed option with twist for the gladiator mk2): strafe up and strafe down on x and y axis respectively, and zoom in and out on twist.

I use a pair of rudder pedals for strafe forward and back (right toe brake strafe forward, left toe brake strafe back)

Having a left handed option for the gladiator mk2 and up would be ideal, preferably with twist. I have a few org mates who are left handed who prefer pitch, yaw, and roll on the left an that would be a great settling point for them. I myself am left handed but have always preferred using my right hand in Sims. For star citizen and other space Sims I feel not having a twist axis on both sticks limits the user experience.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby solomonisleboy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 16:40

Well, perhaps I missed the poll, but I'll throw my two cents in anyhow as I signed up for the forums just now in order to ask about the progress of the left handed Kosmosima with Gladiator Upgrade Kit Lite, and the MCG Pro twist grip - the two remaining things I need to finish my dual stick setup! I've got funds set aside to buy both as soon as they are available!

I fly dual stick (or HOSAS if you prefer that term) in Star Citizen (and Elite when I play). I have been through a variety of other sticks, and finally found VKB hardware to be the perfect balance of capabilities, quality, and price. So now I fly with my Gladiator (non pro) with KG12 on the left and my Gunfighter with MCGPro on the right. To do this I had to (temporarily I hope) give up my right stick twist axis. I used to be pretty good with twist on both sticks. Now, after what seems like a year with rudder pedals and no twist on my Gunfighter/MCGPro, I still suck.... Soon to change I hope.

My preferred setup for left stick:
[*] y - strafe forward/back (I also like to have the option of linking throttle to the "plus y" axis so that my forward strafe and throttle are united fluidly)
[*] x - strafe left/right
[*] z twist - strafe up/down (clockwise is up, counter-clockwise is down)
[*] throttle wheel - the Gladiator base throttle is handy for fluidly setting throttle levels when I am not using strafe inputs i.e. at cruise speeds. It would be amazing to have a small analog scroll-wheel-style throttle accessible to my thumb on the Kosmosima so that I could adjust that without letting go of the stick.

My preferred setup for right stick:
[*] y - pitch (I invert this so that pulling back is pitch up and pushing forward is pitch down)
[*] x - yaw
[*] z twist - roll (I've grown up flying space sims so twist-roll has always fit my style of flight. I have spent over 25 years flying sims this way - now anything else just doesn't feel right!)

As I mentioned above, I am no where near as good with my rudder pedals as I was with twist on both sticks. Rewiring 25 years of right-hand-twist-to-roll just is not happening so far (though I keep trying as I mostly-patiently await the twist adapter release!)!

Some say twist on the right reduces firing accuracy. This is exactly opposite of the facts for me. I actually use tiny right-hand-twist-roll adjustments to refine my aim and bring shots in on target. My feet with pedals are just not capable so far of the coordinated fine-motor adjustments for that function. The twist-roll movement happens so unconsciously that I often still find myself twisting the MCGPro (even though it has no twist) for several seconds before I remember I have to do that with my feet for now till I get the adapter! I recognize this won't fit the use-case for some folks, but for me it is the best by far.

All that last bit is to say, dual sticks with twist are a necessity in Star Citizen for me.
Whatever company offers that capability at a high quality and reasonable price gets my support (and hard-earned cash)! Right now, VKB is that company! Loving it (or will be with the twist adapter soon I hope)!

Having a small analog scroll wheel (that has a tiny center-detent) on the Kosmosima grip would be an awesome bonus!

Keep up the good work, VKB!

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby solomonisleboy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 16:46

Caillin wrote:
Enkrow wrote:Lack of twist allows for more precise use.

It might be worth qualifying this statement. While undoubtedly true for yourself, is not objective or representative for all. I am absolutely just as precise with or without twist, and I'll be interested to see if anyone else has similar experiences.

I actually have the exact opposite experience regarding twist. I am by far more accurate with twist on the right stick because I use that twist-roll to refine my aim and bring shots on target. Without that ability, I suck.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby solomonisleboy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 16:53

Caillin wrote:
KallenStadtfeld_SC wrote:I don't want any twist because I don't want any possibility of the stick moving in my hand and being off on positioning due to it. I'm the heat of combat, I don't want a slight twist placing pressure and turning the stick toward the wrong angle.

Have you had an opportunity to use a stick with twist for any extended period of time? Something like the T16k takes a very concerted effort to actually twist. You can yank'n'bank all day long without accidentally twisting the stick. I've also got a Logitech 3D Pro which has a slightly stiffer twist again, and same result. I think if one were to incorporate twist for the VKB products, they would definitely want it to be around the T16k effort, and no lighter, otherwise unintentional inputs could then creep into it.

I might get off my ass and shoot a quick video of using the T16k in action in Elite (lots of rolling required due to restricted Yaw rates) to a) show how easy it is to fly a twist joystick with zero z-axis bleed, and b) show how accurate it's possible to be when incorporating twist and pitch to roll into and up to your target seamlessly.

Exactly. Couldn't say it any better. I used the T16k for a couple years as well. The first one, the buttons flaked out just under the warranty time. The replacement has begun to do the same, so I switched to the Gladiator and have loved VKB since. I also got a Gunfighter MCGPro. Right now I use it on the right and sorely miss the twist for the very reason of not being able to roll into my targets. Soon to be remedied with a twist adapter, I hope!!!!

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby hon0 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 13:22

rrohde wrote:Hi guys,

question for those of you who are planning on getting (or already use) a dual stick configuration:

- How would you set up your twist axis if both grips would offer twist? What purpose for the left-hand twist, and what purpose for the right-hand twist?

- Follow-up question: Would you prefer a twist grip over rudder pedals? If so, why? If not, why?

Also, please take a moment to answer the poll and explain your choice in the comments as well!


PS: This is "for science" to generate some idea for VKB HQ as to what the general consensus is among the spacesim crowd.
PPS: Please share this poll with other pilots in your community so we get a decent representation here across the board.
PPPS: This also goes for Elite Dangerous pilots as well. :)

Hey Rrohde. After what I've seen at the Citizen Con and the last RTV I updated my axes mapping as follow.

Left hand stick :
X = Lateral strafe.
Y = Vertical strafe. Pull to climb as in helicopter.
Z = Longitudinal strafe Twist inward, so to the right for a left stick, to strafe forward. I do not like tiwsting outward as I find it require a harder grip on the.. Grip. Making it more difficult/less confortable to attain some buttons. Also, crossing the center of the twist mean big bump (On all twist axes I tried at least) and so less accuracy.
Brake lever = Acceleration limiter control (default to 100%, pull the lever to limit, kinda like a vehicle clutch. I’ll also probably set some preset button.

My Longitudinal strafe axes will have the option to hotswap from absolute to relative response. No need for a physical throttle axes to “cruise”.

I don’t put longitudinal strafe on Y cause axes bleeding on lateral and longitudinal strafe is dangerous, think about tight high density area, or a tunnel as in SC race map. A quite big deadzone would be required to band-aid that, and I hate deadzone.

Right hand stick :
X = Roll.
Y = Pitch.
Z = If possible, SCM limiter analog control directly through the game, twist inward to lower the limiter. Some preset button for that too. If not possible via the game, I’ll do it via relative saturation reduction directly through software and/or via preset button as I do since days one.
Brake Lever = strafe backward, both my left hand twist and right hand brake lever would act on the same axes, so both would cancel each other. Therefor, If someone was designing a twist for just me, I would ask my left hand twist to not have a center. It would work like a motorcycle accelerator. The throw could also be larger thanks to that. (I would ask a light spring).

Rudder for Yaw.
I don't want to put anything more on my Rudder as I know precision is greatly impaired when using more than a single axes at a time. Impairing my accuracy on Yaw isn't envisageable.

So, as you can see, I need two 4 axes stick. Me will have to wait for a left hand MCG PRO or hope for the addition of a brake lever on the Left hand Kosmosima. I would prefer the MCG PRO :oops:
Thanks for reading, see you.
Last edited by hon0 on Sun Oct 28, 2018 14:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby ddrake1984 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 14:18

Left X - lateral strafe
Left Y - vertical strafe
Left Z - forward/back strafe. Would be cool if this had dry clutch.

Left X - lateral strafe
Left Y - forward/backward with dry clutch
Left Z - vertical strafe

Right X - roll
Right Y - pitch
Right Z - yaw or pedals using yaw

Right X - yaw
Right Y - pitch
Right Z - n/a with pedals using roll

Pedals have slight cross bleed, but not much, good pedals dont suffer, At the moment I use pedals for forward/back on the toe breaks and Z axis for yaw.

Given the options above, I could switch axis around for pedals, but I will not get rid of pedals as having extra axis seperated from my hand will reduce stick axis bleed if need.

I fly 6dof as I play E:D mostly in flight assist off and I run instructional training sessions for anyone that wants to improve their flying skills.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby StarLordRick » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:11

with the new flight model coming in patch 3.5 in march we can expect a whole new experience since most ships will fly like normal jets.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby hon0 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 19:11

Indeed, but that shouldn't change at all how we map our control. All Ships will retain 6dof abilities. And even if these abilities are on scale with mini-sticks, it would remain far less accurate, confortable, practical than normal stick. And it require to use finger to fly.. Flying with finger mean one can't use that finger to control other thing at the same time. It is already bad with index, even worse with thumb under which most button are located.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Knightcrawler » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:28

I know it's a very old question, but I wasn't lurking the forums then. I figure I'll answer. My ideal setup is as follows: Stick with Z twist and thumb stick in right hand, throttle with thumb stick in left hand.

X - Yaw
Y - Pitch
Z - Roll
Joystick's thumbstick:
Y - Strafe forward/backward
X - Unused

Throttle - Throttle. D'uh.
Throttle's ministick:
X - Strafe left/right
Y - Strafe up/down

Control X and Y aim of movable (gimballed/turreted) guns

I will prefer to stick with fixed weapons where I can, so head-tracking is less important. A second thumbstick on the joystick is a decent substitute for head-tracking, as the primary thumbstick on the joystick is used less often. Because the X axis on the joystick's thumbstick is unused in this control configuration, a self-centering analogue wheel is actually a better option for me, as it would be easier to push-click (for Boost) while finely controlling its position.

The thumbsticks on the throttle and joystick are interchangeable, but I think it is easier to mentally manage the way I have listed.

I used a setup almost exactly like this with my Cytek Cyborg Evo and CH Pro Throttle. However, my CH Pro Throttle doesn't detect its full range. My CH Pro Throttle can't go to 0% or 100%, even when I calibrate it with that in mind. Its range is more like 1.5% - 98.5%, which means I can't hit full throttle or stop without special means. Other than that, it's button positions are fantastic and its calibration program, while ancient, works well enough. My Cytek Cyborg Evo was a pretty junky stick, centering imprecisely every time, requiring huge dead zones, and it was unstable. Additionally, the built-in throttle tended to auto-detect for any axis binding when setting up my controls, which was infuriating. Finally, the 8-way hat was of course digital, so I had imprecise control of forward-back strafing. Anyway, despite the flaws of my last HOTAS setup, it was actually surprisingly easy to manage 7DoF like that (the extra DoF being the throttle). 9DoF using head track is also hypothetically simple, but I have never done it.

VKB is the only company that has offered (or will offer) products that do everything I want, and at a high quality standard. I am eagerly anticipating your throttle. Just please place the thumbstick in a comfortable resting place where your thumb can easily use its full range of motion.

Ideally, I'd like to use the thumbstick on the throttle for walking, but CIG doesn't have that as a bindable option. It is theoretically a good idea; lots of quickly-accessible buttons, a thumbstick for nuanced movement, and a mouse for quick aiming.

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