Question for Star Citizen pilots

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Twist vs. Rudder

Poll ended at Wed May 24, 2017 4:27

I prefer a grip with twist axis for ONE hand (left hand) (please explain use-case)
9
10%
I prefer a grip with twist axis for ONE hand (right hand) (please explain use-case)
14
16%
I prefer two grips with twist axes for BOTH hands (please explain use-case)
23
26%
I prefer a set of rudder pedals and NO twist grips (please explain use-case)
24
27%
I prefer a set of rudder pedals, but still like ONE twist grip as well (please explain use-case)
14
16%
I prefer a set of rudder pedals, but still like TWO twist grips as well (please explain use-case)
6
7%
 
Total votes: 90

shere
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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby shere » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:32

our void got contaminated by atmosphere! they got aero in our space! :) no wonder, since there's a strong community of virtual pilots here. maybe it could be a good idea to duplicate this poll in a Star Citizen subreddit?

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby rrohde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:51

shere wrote:our void got contaminated by atmosphere! they got aero in our space! :) no wonder, since there's a strong community of virtual pilots here. maybe it could be a good idea to duplicate this poll in a Star Citizen subreddit?


Considering that the header clearly states "Question for Star Citizen pilots", maybe these Star Citizen flyers could come here, too? That would be a nice feat to show some love from the space sim crowd decontaminating the aero flyboys environment here. ;)
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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby alluran » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:02

I currently use twist on both sticks.

One for roll, one for vertical strafe.

If I had pedals, I'd move those functions off onto the pedals, allowing for a stronger stick design without twist.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby KallenStadtfeld_SC » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:57

I'm still voting that twist be a separate adapter that can installed between the grip and base. Makes both parties happy.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Caillin » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:27

I just had a couple more thoughts since the poll Rrhode. Firstly, after reading the subsequent posts, at least in Elite, left hand twist would actually be quite useful for non primary flight functions like: Looking at left/right panel, zoom in/out sensor range, weapon group selection. Probably many more that would feel natural and wouldn't necessarily be needed in the thick of combat, but would be nice to have to free up a couple of hat directions for other functions.

Also, regarding ergonomics, a big problem I think with adding a MaRS sensor and twist mechanics as an interface adaptor is that it might bump the height of the stick too much for us desktop pilots (basically everyone who doesn't have/want pedals and wants twist!). Which means the twist would have to be built into the handle itself somehow. Hopefully the new stick designs allow enough room for this to be possible. However if it's built into the stick, then you'd either need to a) have two handles available, one with twist and one without, or b) have a way to solidly lock the twist for those who don't want it. I think due to the fact that VKB have traditionally been fine with releasing modular components, that a) would be the way to go. Those who don't want twist can save some $$$ and keep using their pedals.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby rrohde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:41

KallenStadtfeld_SC wrote:I'm still voting that twist be a separate adapter that can installed between the grip and base. Makes both parties happy.


VKB HQ is considering the exact same thing for one of their upcoming grips! But shhhhh... still under wraps. :)
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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby rrohde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:43

Caillin wrote:Also, regarding ergonomics, a big problem I think with adding a MaRS sensor and twist mechanics as an interface adaptor is that it might bump the height of the stick too much for us desktop pilots (basically everyone who doesn't have/want pedals and wants twist!). Which means the twist would have to be built into the handle itself somehow. Hopefully the new stick designs allow enough room for this to be possible. However if it's built into the stick, then you'd either need to a) have two handles available, one with twist and one without, or b) have a way to solidly lock the twist for those who don't want it. I think due to the fact that VKB have traditionally been fine with releasing modular components, that a) would be the way to go. Those who don't want twist can save some $$$ and keep using their pedals.


Good points!

VKB HQ already hinted to me that they want to use MaRS, and no potis for any of this, so I believe that the engineers have something up their sleeves that would make this work - even in adapter form. But we'll see... :)
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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Caillin » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:07

Awesome *thumbs up*

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby wildstars » Wed Jan 25, 2017 16:06

As apparently the only guy who wants everything...

I really like joysticks. Not quite an addiction, but lets just say I got really excited when Gravis released the very first joystick with a trigger and a button on the joystick. Interestingly enough, I wanted it for the original Elite.

I've owned a lot of joysticks, and still have most of them. Man, do I miss Suncomm. Anyways.

I currently use 2 TM 16Ks, with the matching rudder and throttle. My biggest complaint on the those lies with the button layout on the TM16K. Not enough on the stick, and the overall layout suffers for ambidexterity. It's really meant to be used as a budget single stick solution.

In Elite and Star Citizen, I use the everything, depending on the situation. If I'm cruising around, I use the throttle, rudder, and right hand stick. In combat I use right and left hand sticks and sometimes the rudder if I need more precision than the twist stick can provide.

The added benefit is when I'm playing a non-space flight sim, I've got my controls for those too.

The only thing that is different than most peoples use case for the two sticks is that I use the twist on the left hand stick as a forward/backwards throttle. Like a motorcycle, but with reverse. many of the controls are shared/mirrored on devices For example, the yaw is on the right stick twist and the rudder pedals R-Axis, and the lateral left/right movement is on left hand stick's X-axis and the throttle's rudder paddle. Throttle on the throttle is full range forward (0-100) and the left stick twist is forward/backwards.

My requirements are twist and that it exclusively use magnetic hall sensors. Having the rudder pedals optionally plug into the throttle or joystick is a bonus. Nothing is more irritating that starting up a FPS that things you want to play with joysticks and for some reason your rudder pedals are what it thinks you want to play with. the CH Pro pedals and Borderlands were notorious for this. I can rattle off many other features I'd like to see on your future products from all the sticks I've had over the years, like two stage triggers and afterburner detents, but those would be just icing on the cake.

For the folks who have no desire for, or seething hatred of twisting sticks, I suggest a twist lock feature like the one on the later Saitek X-series sticks (X52pro?), but sturdier.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby wildstars » Wed Jan 25, 2017 17:12

rrohde wrote:
KallenStadtfeld_SC wrote:I'm still voting that twist be a separate adapter that can installed between the grip and base. Makes both parties happy.


VKB HQ is considering the exact same thing for one of their upcoming grips! But shhhhh... still under wraps. :)



I would much prefer a twist lock, but if this is the end solution, could we order it with the option factory installed? I would much rather have a professionally installed and calibrating twist instead of doing it myself. I am no mechanical engineer, but I've taken apart, rebuild, and/or modified more than a few joysticks. I can not see it being a simple plug module. It would require quite a bit of disassembly.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Chief Gully (EC) » Wed Jan 25, 2017 17:18

Ergonomics: Ergonomics is very questionable for most setups. The sticks and grips can be and generally are designed for hand ergonomics. Though when a user places the stick the Ergo portion flies out the window, with the exception of sim pits and a few mounts. Most desk sitting sticks forces the users arms into a position that requires either extended periods of shoulder shrug, or that the arms be extended from shoulder to the point that muscle fatigue becomes a consideration. Most air frames position the stick in such a way that the arm is positioned so the upper portion is parallel to the torso with the fore arm positioned 95 to 160 degree angle. (nearly full bend to almost straight), this reduces muscle fatigue in arms on even casual flights and becomes more important in high stress maneuvers (not a factor with computer gaming). Even the throttle in a fighter jet is positioned on an arm rest so that the device itself is only slightly higher than your naval. Desks tend to stand about chest high when in a seated position or slightly lower, this forces the user to "reach up" past the natural point of their arms rest state. To overcome this I have heavily modified my computer chair so that my sticks (currently couple Logitech cheapies) would rest at the proper height for optimal ergonomic functions. Also note that if your arms are inline with shoulders i.e. sticks are positioned shoulder with apart; your hands are natural rotated approximately 15 degrees thumbs toward body center. This means that a straight up and down stick also forces a non-rest state in the arm twist. Placing the sticks approximately waist high or centering them reduces or negates this. Most sticks design are made to interact with these natural arm positions so some of it does get negated but desk placement is never an optimal position for Sticks, the exception being standing systems.

I say this because when discussing the merits and flaws of a twist on a flight stick ergonomics by the nature of placement and poor positioning becomes mute.

Bleed: their are 2 types of axial bleed Internal and external. Internal bleed comes from poor engineering and sensor placement, and can be the result of sensors interacting with magnets for other axis or the result of errant signal infiltrating the sensor wiring. As VKB is known for high-end quality components I believe that they already have a good handle on signal security when engineering their devices and will totally disregard the possibility of this type of sensor bleed. External Bleed comes from the motion of the hands as the manipulate the control. this can be eliminated through use of the control and training. Like I said I use the cheap Logitech 3d pros ATM these are all pot sensors with twists and 24 awg wire connecting sensor to controller. Pots in and of themselves are plagued with jitter and false reporting issues, in combination with poorly laid wiring and no wire shielding ingress and egress of signal is a big influence when dealing with the axi movements on the sticks. To add to this the twist resistance on these particular sticks is under 3 lbs of pressure. All this compines to make the twist bleed both internal and external.

My settings are very minimalist with only a 5% dead zone on ANY axis. Hand and muscle memory negate external bleed like wise compensate for internal bleed. This most likely will cuase me issues in the future when switching to higher end sticks, but time and practice is all it will be. Point is that the ones saying no twist it might cause Bleed, if your not using twist (its not mapped to control) then there can be no external bleed and since these are high end sticks the internal bleed is not a concern... Muting this argument IMO (Caveat your feelings and belief still play alot into your perception of the stick, the fact that there is no cause for concern does not negate the concern nor the effect it has on your purchase).

I propose that VKB with the interchanging sticks design the Gribs in a twist and non-twist varient. At point of order the user can then decide which variant they would like to use. I would also like to see a travel lock on the twist varients.

My plan is 2 high end sticks w/ twist function. addition of pedals for increased control. if I like the pedals more than the twist I will remap the twist or just lock it. if not I will map the pedals to non-essential functions.

Either way as a company its probaly in the best interest of VKB to at the very least allow twist functionality built in to at least a few grip models.

Happy flying boys and girls

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Goloith » Wed Jan 25, 2017 19:52

Interesting to see the results of the poll. The results completely contradicts what the top players in Star Citizen use.

Currently top pilots are using Pitch / Yaw on right hand with Warthogs, twist on the left-hand for roll, then strafe up/down and strafe left/right. Then settings throttle to hats when using dual joysticks.

Additionally, other top pilots are using HOTAS are currently using Pitch / Yaw on right hand with Warthogs, Warthog throttle for throttle and a hat for strafe up/down.
Then, are using pedals for roll and strafe up/down. Top HOTAS users DESPERATELY want twist on the right handed grip for roll so they can bind strafe up/down to the pedals for finer control.

Anyways, that's my opinion with the highest squadron battle score in the games history. My Renegade Squadron brothers would agree as well (Top PvP Organization in SC)

Top players want twist on the grips

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby rrohde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 20:16

See - that's why we need a stronger presence *here* of SC players to get that kind of feedback.

VKB is keenly aware of the spaceim market, and definitively wants to be part of it. The more feedback they get, the more they can cater to the needs of the SC community.

So, please invite some more SC players here, have them voice their opinions (and, examples how they set up their various axes), and VKB will have something to go by.

Your opinion matters!
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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby Macross » Wed Jan 25, 2017 22:07

One option could be, like with gladiator, one model with twist and pro with metal gimbal without.
Both side happy.

Im happy with gladiator base, those buttons are really usefull in sc, so keeping current gladiator bases and upgrading kg grip to "kosmosima" grip would be good choise.

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Re: Question for Star Citizen pilots

Postby rrohde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 22:22

Macross wrote:One option could be, like with gladiator, one model with twist and pro with metal gimbal without.
Both side happy.


Yeah, the upcoming VKB grips will work with the Gladiator Pro, Gunfighter and Gunfighter Pro, and will likely be made with an adapter that would allow twist option. There might also be a grip that has twist already built in, so users can piece together their dual-stick configuration based on their needs. Both options should allow to locking the twist option when not needed.
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