Bottom line: A throttle based in some of these (F/A/B...Su/V/X/Z) jet fighters throttles will show the same drawback - they are made for that jet specific needs.
Flight/Combat/Kosmosimov virtual pilots have different needs - and need all in same throttle.
WWII sims are "reborn" - is need take their specific needs in the equation too, as well the "Kosmosimov" needs.
Difficult task...
VKB Throttle
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Re: VKB Throttle
I agree Sokol, but in this regard unfortunately everybody will be pushing their agenda based on their own preference, and usually this comes down to their preferred flight sim or aircraft.
This is more noticeable for those that prefer WW2 flight sims, like IL2. In those cases, the control systems of those aircraft were very simple compared to modern aircraft. Users who play these sims are more chasing "authentic" or "immersive" controls that as closely as possible, mimic their real life counterparts. This is in no way a bad thing, but tends to make controllers aimed at that market specific and niche in nature themselves.
The explosion in interest in space combat sims over the last couple of years has also thrown a spanner in the works for traditional controller manufacturers like VKB, as the requirements are escalated again in terms of additional analgue axii required, more hats/buttons on HOTAS for additional ship functions and the change in rudder/twist axis input now being preferable for controlling roll instead of yaw like in a traditional atmospheric aircraft.
VR is another factor that is complicating things currently. When you have your headset on, then any additional keys that are not on your HOTAS are pretty much inaccessible. This requires a lot more functions to be at your fingertips, and configured in such a way that muscle memory and tactile differences can be picked up between buttons.
I think VKB are in a good position with having an excellent, modular gimbal system, that has the potential to take a variety of different grips to satisfy everyone given enough time and money. They would also have a much better idea of the size of the market when coming up with plans and ideas, because at the end of the day, they do actually want these products to be successful, mainly to be able to generate the capital needed to expand their product portfolio.
I think the modern jet peripheral market is saturated already in both stick and throttle options.
I think that if the market is there for WW2, then it makes sense for VKB to concentrate on a period specific "authentic" throttle for the WW2 sim crowd, so coupled with the Gladiator and T-Rudder, they have the perfect WW2 HOTAS.
Once this is completed, they'd be crazy not to then work on (and they may have already done this at a design phase) a) a "space" centric grip for the Pro gimbal, and a totally different type of throttle that isn't based on a particular airframe, but instead focuses on a good ergonomic option that gives an additional axis or axii and plenty of button options. Something like the Logitech Extreme 3d Pro is a good example of a very ergonomic stick that has a good number of useful buttons available to the right hand, without actually mimicing any existing aircraft joystick. Something along these lines, but with an additional hat would be close to perfect for a space-centric grip.
I think when Star Citizen launches, it's going to absolutely huge, and I really don't want VKB to miss out on that moment, as it's a really good opportunity for them as the only manufacturer in the world creating decent, good working, reliable and precise hardware. Having said that, they should focus on the WW2 crowd first, as they are the ones that have mostly supported them to this point.
This is more noticeable for those that prefer WW2 flight sims, like IL2. In those cases, the control systems of those aircraft were very simple compared to modern aircraft. Users who play these sims are more chasing "authentic" or "immersive" controls that as closely as possible, mimic their real life counterparts. This is in no way a bad thing, but tends to make controllers aimed at that market specific and niche in nature themselves.
The explosion in interest in space combat sims over the last couple of years has also thrown a spanner in the works for traditional controller manufacturers like VKB, as the requirements are escalated again in terms of additional analgue axii required, more hats/buttons on HOTAS for additional ship functions and the change in rudder/twist axis input now being preferable for controlling roll instead of yaw like in a traditional atmospheric aircraft.
VR is another factor that is complicating things currently. When you have your headset on, then any additional keys that are not on your HOTAS are pretty much inaccessible. This requires a lot more functions to be at your fingertips, and configured in such a way that muscle memory and tactile differences can be picked up between buttons.
I think VKB are in a good position with having an excellent, modular gimbal system, that has the potential to take a variety of different grips to satisfy everyone given enough time and money. They would also have a much better idea of the size of the market when coming up with plans and ideas, because at the end of the day, they do actually want these products to be successful, mainly to be able to generate the capital needed to expand their product portfolio.
I think the modern jet peripheral market is saturated already in both stick and throttle options.
I think that if the market is there for WW2, then it makes sense for VKB to concentrate on a period specific "authentic" throttle for the WW2 sim crowd, so coupled with the Gladiator and T-Rudder, they have the perfect WW2 HOTAS.
Once this is completed, they'd be crazy not to then work on (and they may have already done this at a design phase) a) a "space" centric grip for the Pro gimbal, and a totally different type of throttle that isn't based on a particular airframe, but instead focuses on a good ergonomic option that gives an additional axis or axii and plenty of button options. Something like the Logitech Extreme 3d Pro is a good example of a very ergonomic stick that has a good number of useful buttons available to the right hand, without actually mimicing any existing aircraft joystick. Something along these lines, but with an additional hat would be close to perfect for a space-centric grip.
I think when Star Citizen launches, it's going to absolutely huge, and I really don't want VKB to miss out on that moment, as it's a really good opportunity for them as the only manufacturer in the world creating decent, good working, reliable and precise hardware. Having said that, they should focus on the WW2 crowd first, as they are the ones that have mostly supported them to this point.
- rrohde
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Re: VKB Throttle
Caillin wrote:I think the modern jet peripheral market is saturated already in both stick and throttle options.
Er... what? Saturated by what offerings exactly? I keep looking for a modern split throttle and modern grip with VKB-style/quality gimbal (that's not Thrustmaster brand), and I can't find any...
Anyway, any modern style controller setup can be used for these space games. While "spacey" looking controllers, a la Saitek, might not reach the quality that us flight simmers demand. Modern style controllers will also allow the WWII crowd to control their aircraft, as they don't need/want to use all these options available. In short, the more buttons, switches, and dials (analog axes, that is) a controller offers, the more of the sim market it will cover. On the contrary, the fewer buttons, switches and dials are available, the more niche it becomes. VKB needs to get out of that niche to cover more of the simulation market.
VKB North America
https://VKBcontrollers.com
https://VKBcontrollers.com
Re: VKB Throttle
Saturated by quantity, not necessarily quality. For those that want a modern joystick throttle combo, there are options on the market already, and if you want high end, then you still have the option of using a Warthog grip on a VKB gimbal.
The early period flyers had pretty much nothing up until the KG12 inspired Gladiator, and would make sense for them to have a throttle option to suit.
In the space sim genre, pretty much any throttle of the above could work, but ideally, you'd want something that had 6DOF capability, and more generic single use button capability as you don't have airframe specific functions to cater for, so you can lose things like trim wheels and sliders.
In the VR/Space Sim world, then authenticity has to take a back seat to ergonomics and recognizable numerous hat/button combinations. This also frees designers up somewhat, as they aren't constrained by trying to design something based on an existing device, they have a blank page to create something really unique. When I think space sim, I'm not thinking "space looking", I'm thinking "space functional". I really don't think the X-56, or the reskinned T16k or even the upcoming Start Citizen/Saitek collaborative joystick are going to cut it for the type of fastidious demographic that are going "all in" on space sims. Just have a look through the Star Citizen forums to see just how many passionate joystick/HOTAS users frequent there. Same goes for the Frontier forums.
Anyway, everyone has different wants when it comes to peripherals, and I'm sure VKB and Jason have been keeping a finger on the pulse of the market to see where they should direct their very limited resources to.
The early period flyers had pretty much nothing up until the KG12 inspired Gladiator, and would make sense for them to have a throttle option to suit.
In the space sim genre, pretty much any throttle of the above could work, but ideally, you'd want something that had 6DOF capability, and more generic single use button capability as you don't have airframe specific functions to cater for, so you can lose things like trim wheels and sliders.
In the VR/Space Sim world, then authenticity has to take a back seat to ergonomics and recognizable numerous hat/button combinations. This also frees designers up somewhat, as they aren't constrained by trying to design something based on an existing device, they have a blank page to create something really unique. When I think space sim, I'm not thinking "space looking", I'm thinking "space functional". I really don't think the X-56, or the reskinned T16k or even the upcoming Start Citizen/Saitek collaborative joystick are going to cut it for the type of fastidious demographic that are going "all in" on space sims. Just have a look through the Star Citizen forums to see just how many passionate joystick/HOTAS users frequent there. Same goes for the Frontier forums.
Anyway, everyone has different wants when it comes to peripherals, and I'm sure VKB and Jason have been keeping a finger on the pulse of the market to see where they should direct their very limited resources to.
- rrohde
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Re: VKB Throttle
Points well made, Caillin!
BTW - for a true 6-DOF experience check this out: http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacemouse.html
Made for CAD designers, but I believe two of those would be awesome for flying in space!
BTW - for a true 6-DOF experience check this out: http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacemouse.html
Made for CAD designers, but I believe two of those would be awesome for flying in space!
VKB North America
https://VKBcontrollers.com
https://VKBcontrollers.com
Re: VKB Throttle
Yeah, there a very long running thread on the Star Citizen forums about that space mouse. It's an excellent concept, however what really lets it down is a) lack of buttons, and b) very short throw. The short throw is great in CAD applications where you are spinning and rotating an object, but in 6DOF space sims, you really want more granular control. I think that's why dual stick users seem to be so evangelical about it
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Re: VKB Throttle
Well I just bought a Cobra M5 as an interim stick until the Gunfighter comes out with a grip that's appropriate for space sims (The Su-35 grip will work just fine, thanks!), but I'm looking at a CH Throttle Pro, unless the new Thrustmaster offering convinces me otherwise. This is all to replace a Saitek x52 Pro that must have been built after the Mad Catz acquisition, as it started dying within months of purchase. I nursed it along for quite a while, but I'm looking to trade up. The CH Throttle I'm hoping will eventually be replaced by a VKB product, to go with the Gunfighter, but if not, I'll have to hope that Logitech's acquisition of Saitek off Mad Catz will turn their QC around, and that they'll start selling standalone throttles. Because otherwise, I think I'm going to have CH's durable 8-bit precision with potentiometres over anything more modern. Might upgrade it a bit, once I'm comfortable with it. Even a new controller would do wonders for it. I'm not worried about the durability of the CH product, it'll probably last decades. I'm just wary of the early-'90s-grade electronics in it, precision-wise.
If VKB bring out something with as good or better ergonomics and interface options than that, with their quality of internals, I'll be all over it. Just might have to save up for a few months, to afford it.
If VKB bring out something with as good or better ergonomics and interface options than that, with their quality of internals, I'll be all over it. Just might have to save up for a few months, to afford it.
Re: VKB Throttle
For the curious, this was my first version of a left-hand controller for Elite Dangerous, which I built on top of a T-16000M. Horizontal grip like a throttle, extra buttons and thumbstick like some of the different game controllers out there, but on top of a joystick gimbal, for two axes rather than just forward/back like a regular throttle. My right hand controller is a Warthog grip on the VKB Black Mamba base:
(The problems being 1. the blended axes of the T-16000M make, for example, recentering from lateral thrusters difficult to find if you're currently thrusting forward/backwards, and 2. The stalk is way too high up, leading to excessive movements being required especially if having to do quick changes in combat. Hence why version 2 is going to be built on top of the VKB Gladiator Pro platform instead... the reason for my questions about adding buttons in the tech support section. No progress yet though, been busy with other more important projects [eg. house renovations] )
From my point of view, a traditional throttle is best left for atmospheric flight sims, and I stick with one of those for regular planes. For spaceflight with thrusters in all directions, in my opinion, a dual-stick setup makes more sense (even if the left stick is 'throttle grip on joystick gimbal').
(The problems being 1. the blended axes of the T-16000M make, for example, recentering from lateral thrusters difficult to find if you're currently thrusting forward/backwards, and 2. The stalk is way too high up, leading to excessive movements being required especially if having to do quick changes in combat. Hence why version 2 is going to be built on top of the VKB Gladiator Pro platform instead... the reason for my questions about adding buttons in the tech support section. No progress yet though, been busy with other more important projects [eg. house renovations] )
From my point of view, a traditional throttle is best left for atmospheric flight sims, and I stick with one of those for regular planes. For spaceflight with thrusters in all directions, in my opinion, a dual-stick setup makes more sense (even if the left stick is 'throttle grip on joystick gimbal').
Re: VKB Throttle
Very interesting concept, thanks for sharing. Does that configuration give you enough "grip" on the throttle though? It looks as though you'd really only have your left palm for control/leverage which seems not very optimal. Definitely having the VKB base will solve the blending axis problem, and will also allow fine tuning of the spring tension on each axis to suit a non-standard setup like that.
I love seeing those with DIY skills having a crack at making bespoke items, good work!
I love seeing those with DIY skills having a crack at making bespoke items, good work!
Re: VKB Throttle
The "grip" is just enough for the T16000M's spring, though sometimes I do get a bit of slip; since there's a bit of a 'ball' at the top of the grip, I can cup my palm over that, and that gives me enough for movement in both axes most of the time. I have considered repainting it with Plastidip though, just to improve it, but now that I'm going to be making another version, I probably won't bother at this point.
I have been considering going back to a vertically oriented grip for ver.2 though. The horizontal grip feels more 'natural', given the usual throttle grip, but I'm getting the feeling that quick direction changes will be faster with a vertical grip. Have been pondering/doodling different grip ideas, but haven't mocked anything up yet. Would probably have to go to some hats, unless I could figure out a good way to position the 'keypad' vertically and still accessible with a flight stick grip. Maybe only 2 rows instead of 3? As I mentioned in the other thread, good ergonomics is tough...
(Edit: Sorry for derailing!)
I have been considering going back to a vertically oriented grip for ver.2 though. The horizontal grip feels more 'natural', given the usual throttle grip, but I'm getting the feeling that quick direction changes will be faster with a vertical grip. Have been pondering/doodling different grip ideas, but haven't mocked anything up yet. Would probably have to go to some hats, unless I could figure out a good way to position the 'keypad' vertically and still accessible with a flight stick grip. Maybe only 2 rows instead of 3? As I mentioned in the other thread, good ergonomics is tough...
(Edit: Sorry for derailing!)
Re: VKB Throttle
Hi..i am a new user here. I think they can start making space game oriented sticks that will use today gladiator/mamba base and later have a special dedicated base.You could get the space gaming community onboard whit a decent stick and a later space oriented base.For the throttle the same could be used for ww2/jets/space gaming, different handles sharing the same base.
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