VKB-SIM

Since the soft and hard springs for my Evo KG12 have now arrived and I like a stiffer feel on my pitch/y-axis, I took out the #20s and swapped in the #30s and tightened up the dampeners on the Y-axis a bit. Not too much I thought but it seems as if the clutches on higher settings can overpower even the stronger springs. I did re-calibrate the stick after the operation, but I did get some unacceptable behavior in flight, so I went back into VKB Config. Sure enough, the stick didn't go back all the way to center on its own on the Y-axis. And I'm pretty sure it's a mechanical thing, not a question of electronics/sensors or faulty calibration.

So I opened it up again and backed both Y-axis screws off by, maybe, a quarter-turn anti-clockwise. Closed the stick, re-calibrated again but it's still the same story. At least when I push forward... pulling back and letting go will return the stick to center.

So: Are those two screws on the Y-axis actually only responsible for one half axis each? If so: Which is which? I want to go as hard as I can on the Y-axis and since there are no indicators showing me how hard the clutches are engaged, I don't want to even mess anymore with the lower half of the axis which is set up just the way I want it right now. Gotta say though that even if I could go harder, I probably wouldn't because even at the current setting, the clutches and springs are starting to overpower the heavy duty velcro I use to fix the stick to my desk...

S.

The dry clutches' role is to hold the grip in place, not to fight against springs. If you don't want the joystick to return to center, then there should be no springs.

I think you misunderstood me. I want the stick's Y-axis to be as stiff as I can make it without compromising the stick's function (as a flightstick) or breaking/damaging it. Meaning I want it to behave like a regular joystick, just one with a pretty stiff Y-axis because I find this helps me to control my planes' pitch in flight-sims.

I think I went a bit too hard on the clutches, so even the #30 springs weren't strong enough to return the stick completely to its center position. When it was pushed all the way forward, and I let it return to center on its own, it would move almost to center but then stop maybe 300 to 500 units/positions (in the VKB-testing-screen) short of the actual center position. So I would get constant "elevator down" in flight-sims when I didn't apply any input and the stick should've been at 0/0. If I then just touched the stick a bit, slightly pulling it back, it would then move to the center and rest there, but I'm pretty sure I set clutches too hard.

I did go back inside the stick and I released the Y-axis clutch far enough for the stick to function properly.

The reason why I was posing the question was that I was wondering whether those two Y-axis screws on the gimbal are each actually just responsible for only half of the Y-axis... like, for example: the left screw tightens/loosens the forward half of the Y-axis, the right screw does the same for the back half. Because before I loosened things up, the stick did return to center on its own when released from its rearmost position... but not from the most forward position, where it would stop short of center - as I described above. So I figured perhaps I had only overdone things on one of the screws... if that was the one that is responsible for the stiffness of the upper half of the Y-axis.

Man, all this is pretty complicated to describe in writing.... lol!

S.

I'm using too dampers on my rotational joystick because I think they help me with aiming, but not going in too much because that would mean I would have to fight against and don't want to get tired.
So I guess you'll have to experiment to find your sweet spot

That's what I've been doing for way too long into the night last night...

And I *think* I'm right about the two screws on the Y-axis. The left one seems to control the forward half of the axis (from center to full forward) and the right one seems to control the rear half (center to full back). I only adjusted the left screw to try this out and the stick only changed its behavior on the forward half of the Y-axis. Pulling it back and releasing it felt unchanged and I also confirmed this in the VKB testing screen.

I almost wish I had never started to fiddle with all this, because now I'm "chasing perfection" and it always involves undoing the velcro I use to fix the stick to my desk, opening it up, etc.

But I gotta ask: Any clutch setting where the stick returns to dead center on its own when I take my hand off the grip is considered a "safe setting" mechanically? I don't want to do any damage to that gimbal ...

S.

1sascha wrote:And I *think* I'm right about the two screws on the Y-axis. The left one seems to control the forward half of the axis (from center to full forward) and the right one seems to control the rear half (center to full back). I only adjusted the left screw to try this out and the stick only changed its behavior on the forward half of the Y-axis. Pulling it back and releasing it felt unchanged and I also confirmed this in the VKB testing screen.

That's normal, considering the adjusting bolts are at the sides of a ball bearing and not directly on top of it.

1sascha wrote:I almost wish I had never started to fiddle with all this, because now I'm "chasing perfection" and it always involves undoing the velcro I use to fix the stick to my desk, opening it up, etc.

This will hardly ever stop )) But I strongly suggest to try desk mounts, something strong that will hold your joystick still - game changer.

1sascha wrote:But I gotta ask: Any clutch setting where the stick returns to dead center on its own when I take my hand off the grip is considered a "safe setting" mechanically? I don't want to do any damage to that gimbal

Anything other than tightening the dry clutches' bolts really hard should be safe for using.

fallout9 wrote:But I strongly suggest to try desk mounts, something strong that will hold your joystick still - game changer.

Yeah... I'm already looking into that. Tried Virpil and WinWing stuff with mounts on the weekend at a LAN-event (sadly, none of the guys I knew had Gunfighters or I would've had the "complete picture") and they all had central mounts which were a bit of a revelation for me. Felt so much more natural and in control to have the stick where it would be in a real fighter.
Unfortunately, the VKB mount for the Gladiator seems out of stock in the EU-store, so I have to look elsewhere at the moment ... (hint, hint ... nudge, nudge)

On a side note: It's really too bad you guys (and Virpil, WinWing , etc) don't have a way to let potential customers experience your products. Just using this stuff for a few minutes was like an eye-opener and put the asking prices for the high end flightsticks into perspective. As much as I love this Gladiator, the all metal, high end stuff is really on a whole other level. And I'm sure it's the same with the Gunfighter.

fallout9 wrote:Anything other than tightening the dry clutches' bolts really hard should be safe for using.

Thank you... that's a load off my mind.

S.

I did something similar with soft space cams on my gunfighter. I own a gladiator and it actually centers between a hard and soft center imho.

That being said, you have to apply dead zone for a “perfect center” with dampers applied. I currently use 2 percent and it’s still ridiculously accurate with perfect center/ zero drift. If your looking for a perfect center and your 600 points off center in calibration you could reasonably estimate to be between 3 to 4 percent dead zone from achieving zero drift.

I’d say give that a try and report back. I’m going to say your going to end up closer to 4% dead zone though.

Oh, I've changed things around again multiple times since my original post. Of course ...

Went back to #20s on both axes and set my clutches precisely to the point where the Y-axis would return to dead center every single time when I let go of the grip. Found that was too light all around for my taste. So, for the 1,000,000th time, I undid the velcro, opened her up and this time I simply started messing with the clutches while the stick was connected and VKB config was running. Just so that I could immediately verify the effect my last change had (if any). I also went with tiny steps on the adjustment screws... no more than, say, a 10th of a turn at a time.

I ended up with the #30 spring on the Y-axis, #20 on the X-axis. X-axis is now set to light to medium clutch, but not too soft, since having too much of a difference in "hardness" between X and Y felt very odd to me.

Y-axis is set, maybe, a hair stronger than what is needed to reliably return it to dead center on its own. It'll still return to center on its own ~98% of the time and when it doesn't, the point where it stops is so close to dead center that it doesn't really matter. Also re-checked my deadzones, but I had already put in 4% center dead-zone in IL-2 which I find works perfectly in that game. As much as I hate the disorganized way IL-2 makes you map your keys, I do love their instant stick input verification feature on the axis fine-tuning screen. Makes it pretty easy to tune the axes and to understand what the various settings will do.

I think what I found out re my personal preferences is that (probably just like in a real plane) I have to have X's and Y's feel "harmonized" (as stated above). The worst the stick felt to me was when I had set the Y-axis to #30 spring and very strong clutch while the X-axis was using #20 with clutch set to its weakest (just above the point where its screw would fall out ). That felt totally unnatural to me.

What I also realized (again) is that at some point you should probably stop messing with the settings or you'll be chasing your own tail, getting nowhere. If you find a setting that feels only "ok" or even "good" at first, leave it like that and start flying, flying, flying. Chances are, you'll get used to it pretty quickly.


S.

So, I have a pair of sidestick mounts (stick and Omni throttle) and they are indeed a game changer. I was skeptical at first, but they are totally worth it.

As far as Gladiator vs. Gunfighter, I have one of each. Honestly? The Gunfighter isn't bad. It is of excellent quality. Unless you're using extensions, what it really gets you is changeable cams. But the Gladiator is still really, really good, and the EVO (I have the NXT) would narrow that difference between them even more. I have a Gunfighter because it was a gift, but if I were buying for myself, I would be perfectly happy with a pair of Gladiators, and use the money I save on some desk mounts. The Gunfighter is better because of how much you can tweak the feel of the stick... But I ended up tweaking it to feel like the Gladiator, because that stick was basically perfect right out of the box.

Mounts will have to wait a bit, I'm afraid. Buddy set me up with a 2nd hand (but probably never used) Oculus Rift S for a very good price. He checked it out at the seller's house for me, found it worked perfectly, said it even still smelled like new and bought it from the guy for €190. After having tried modern VR last weekend for the first time, I just couldn't say no... even though it's just a Rift S, not a Reverb G2. Back to the waiting game and to refreshing the tracking page every 20 mins or so...

Oh well... time for VKB's EU-store to re-stock on mounts, I suppose. I was also looking at that TM Flying Clamp thing, which seems rather sturdy and is quite affordable. I know it would fit the NXT's mounting holes from other users' reviews/videos, but I fear it might be too wide/bulky for a central mount and that's what I want. It's probably still perfectly fine for my throttle in a side-mount position, but I'll wait until next month with all that.

S.

Check eBay. I found desk mounts and CH stick and throttle for less than the cost of the mounts. I used the stick and throttle for awhile, then upgraded to VKB kit. But that still means that I paid less for the mounts than they are new.

Thanks, but (using german ebay) all I found was Monstertech's stuff at MSRP, a ton of monitor mounts and even more gamepads and other irrelevant stuff. Looks like it'll have to be either the TM or VKB or Monstertech. Or DIY, I suppose, at which point those monitor mounts *could* prove useful

The good thing about the TM is that if I can't get it to work with the stick, it will be perfectly fine for my current TWCS throttle or (probably) any other throttle I might upgrade to in the future. I do suspect it's too bulky for a central mount with rudder pedals under the desk, but that won't matter in a side-mount position for the throttle.

But like I said: I'm going to go easy on the spending for a few weeks now. My NXT Evo is velcroed securely to my desk (the stuff is strong enough for the #30 springs and slightly harder clutch-settings) so all I'd need or get from a mount is the improved ergos/positioning of the stick. And I've been flying with my stick sitting on my desk like that since 1995 (God, I'm old), so I can wait a few more weeks or months. It's all good.

S.

Since I haven't felt the need to keep tinkering with the springs and clutches in days, I think I found my personal sweet spot for fixed wing flight-sims (strong emphasis on WW2 stuff).

Y-axis: #30 spring, clutch set pretty hard, but just soft enough to ensure reliable return to center when I take my hand off the grip. Took a lot of fine adjustments and a bit of patience to find the right setting, but it ain't rocket-science..

X-axis: #20 spring, clutch set to medium strength, but not too soft to avoid having too large of a difference between X's and Y's "stiffness".

Kinda makes me wish there was some sort of "dial" with labels or strength settings on it to manipulate the clutches. That would also prevent the screw(s) from falling out when you back off the clutch strength too much (I managed to do that twice, lol).




S.