Nyogel Damping Grease Sample Pack Results (774VL-VH & 868L-VH)

[InfiniteChimp]

Recently I disassembled my Gladiator MKII to address some strange sensor issues that were popping up on my Y-axis. I believe the culprit was some excess grease that had made its way onto one of the magnets. I was successful in diagnosing (or at least solving the problem serendipitously) and put the stick back together only to discover that while I had fixed the issue, I had inadvertently wiped some of the grease off a part or two and left the stick motion inconsistent between the axes.

No problem, I figured now was a good time to look into some new greases to make the control of my joystick feel more realistic when used as a Helicopter cyclic. Anyone who has had a Helicopter lesson or even tried the Huey in DCS World knows that cyclics are extremely sensitive to motion, moreso than many other vehicle controls out there, and so the proper lubricant/damping sensation is very important. I did a bit of research on the matter and wasn't able to find much, other than a frequent suggestion for other sticks: Nyogel 767a. However the description of this product made me a bit skeptical, as most users reported a heavy damping sensation and I wasn't sure how that would fare for my realism pursuit.

Fast forward to today and I've just finished testing 6 different greases out of Nyogel's damping grease lineup and I figured that I'd post my observations/experiences here for posterity. TAI-Lubricants (their American small quantity supplier) offers a sample pack of 8 greases with varying viscosities and properties. You may have seen their comparison videos on youtube yourself ->
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFSe-9v8tuk
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59F9qUDNwnQ

What isn't mentioned in these videos or elsewhere is that the 868 series and 774 series have very different tactile sensations.
The 774 series is much like the 767a. There is some decent tack to the gel, meaning it is quite sticky and the shear resistance is high. When you get down towards the 774VL(very light), the gels seem to be intended for tiny electronics or finer gears, as there is decreasing discernable displacement resistance (cushion) between the parts and it would seem that the quality control or tolerances between said parts would need to be very fine in order to get the best use/experience from it. When testing this gel I could feel quite a bit of grinding from the plastic cams, as there was a lot of actual contact between the parts. In the opposite direction, the 774VH, while less tacky/dampening than the famed 767a gel, offered quite a bit of cushion.

The 868 series seemed more akin to an actual grease, with plenty of cushion between parts even at about the lowest viscosity (868L). It offered similar damping speeds to each of its gel counterparts, but with a different sensation. The 868 series is much smoother in resolving fine movements, and allows force in any direction with more even control than the 774. I think it is superior in my experience, as the shear resistance is quite a bit lower while still offering comparable speeds to the 774. I suspect something along this line is what was used in the original manufacture of the MKII, as it feels closer to my initial experience with the joystick.

Unfortunately in my testing of these Nyogel greases I discovered that at all but the highest levels of damping in each series, you have to fight the springs quite a bit, leaving you with much LESS control and accuracy than with the original manufacturer's grease. In other words, the 774VH and 868H offered the only usable resistance to the force of the standard MKII springs, while still falling short of the default. I think these gels and greases might be more suited to a simpler design of cams than what the MKII uses, with fewer parts in contact, or for unilateral movements like the MKII's built-in throttle or even an external one like the TWCS/Thrustmaster HOTAS. I don't think that any of the gels/greases are suitable for this joystick, let alone helicopter cyclic replication, unless you are using VERY light spring tension or maybe an extension.

Anyway I hope this information is helpful to others who may be looking into high quality alternative damping greases. I intend to test out the 767a gel next, and post my comparison results accordingly for those who may be wondering. Please note that my experience was exclusive to the Gladiator MKII joystick, so a different design may net you different requirements. I also feel that the greases may offer more success in things like rudder pedals, such as the CH Pro pedals (which are my next project!)

[fallout9]

Extremely interesting read and thank you for the detailed analysis!

[InfiniteChimp]

Thank you for your praise! I used some of your comments in posts past as basis for my research and they have proved valuable.
However, on that note, do you happen to know or would you be able to find out which grease was used in the manufacturing process of the MKII? I would like to get ahold of some, or an equivalent brand, as out of all the greases I have tried the original seemed best.

[fallout9]

Unfortunately I don't think this could be helped - the original grease was made by a Chinese manufacturer which sells only in bulk. VKB has made the transition recently to Nye products, so I don't think there's anything left from the original grease in stock. Even if it'd be, there are severe restrictions in shipping grease even in small quantities out of China. Pretty sure there are lots of limitations from US and EU customs too on this, unless you are an official distributor
I'll give it a try though and ask for more info from HQ.

[InfiniteChimp]

After completing the test of all the other damping greases, I mentioned I would do a followup post mentioning my experience with and a little bit of technical & subjective data on the Nyogel 767a damping grease, commonly touted as the superior option for joystick lubrication/dampening.

First the technical data - Nyogel 767a has slightly higher shear force resistance than 774vh as measured by characteristic "Viscosity under Shear" (pa-sec) at room temperature.
774vh is rated at 112, while Nyogel 767a is rated at around 132. 767a has the same flow properties as the 774 series.

Now the subjective - When applied to the MKII joystick I found a superior feel of control compared to the 774vh on account of the increased resistance. I find myself fighting the springs less, so diagonal movements of the joystick are smoother. However, there is still a light amount of spring resistance you have to overcome, which reinforces the feel of an X&Y axis. The 767a allows for fairly rapid movements of the stick, its still pretty liberal and I get decent speed. For a jet or other fixed wing/simple trajectory aircraft, this is probably the feel you're going for. With a spacecraft (ED, SC, etc.) you may find aiming a little difficult, but doable. For helicopter application, I found that the damping level of 767a is very good and offers sensitive handling of the cyclic but only when the springs are removed. It hadn't occurred to me that most helicopter cyclics are omnidirectional and are less bound by axes until this part of the project. In fact after removing the springs inside my joystick base, I found that relying on the damping effects of the grease to offer stability and precision instead was much more effective. My cyclic game shot way up even in the span of 10 minutes. Wow.

All that being said, Nyogel 767a does not seem (to ME) to be the ideal grease for the Gladiator MKII's plastic gimbal. In spite of its functionality for my specific application and its general usefulness, I would maintain that when compared to the manufacturer's original grease, the 767a is inferior in terms of feel and control. It is definitely useable, but I suspect that an 868 series grease at a similar rated viscosity or slightly higher would have superior flow qualities, and be more reminiscent of the original grease used.

That about sums up my findings, at least in accordance to my particular needs. Hopefully this post is of use to others doing research on damping greases, and lets you make a more informed decision. I've included an exploded diagram of the surfaces requiring grease, should anyone be needing it.

https://i.imgur.com/R2Dr3dx.jpg

[fallout9]

Thank you again for this very informative thread, I'm sure it'll be used as a reference in the future.

[Escapetaxi]

Thank you for this interesting Thread!

Greases - that is a long Story for me, too. I tried to get the Original Grease used by VKB via Support, but the Chinese deny it to deliver it via
Air nor Ship.

NyoGel 767a is not the optimal Solution for the Gladiator MK. II. It just has too high Viscosity / Sticking for small and fast Movement.

My Cupboard is full of different Greases and Oils. Tried so many and even Combinations of it and in the end, Aparoli Universal PTFE gave the
best Result for me so far.

https://www.amazon.de/Aparoli-840837-PT ... B008XF1L1G

It is very soft and smooth, but still gives a very light dampening Effect.

Would be good to show in a Video - compared to the Original greased one. I have 3 Gladiator MK. II at Home. One with Original Grease, the 2nd
completly re-greased with Aparoli and the 3rd just had Tornado Silicone Oil added. Adding Silicone Oil to Original Grease worked out great first,
but after a while it got worse... it spreaded everywhere.

[InfiniteChimp]

Fallout9 were you able to find out which grease was used for this joystick, or any relevant data on the type of grease used? If we can't get ahold of the original, maybe we can find a comparable grease that's available for purchase outside China.

[fallout9]

I've found that it's a Nye product, higher viscosity than 767A, but it is a custom product made for VKB only so not available in store

[InfiniteChimp]

Thanks for the reply. I take it you aren't able to share any technical data on the grease?

[fallout9]

Sorry, no.

[InfiniteChimp]

I'm updating this thread as I feel I have finally located the ideal grease for the Gunfighter dampers (at least for my use, which was for helicopters). I have been using it for the last several weeks to great benefit. It improves the damping sensation to a very smooth, consistent resistance and speed, with minimal stiction. I've also used this grease on my old Gladiator MKII, and found that it very adequately replaces the initial manufacturer's grease. It feels almost exactly like it did when I bought it. Presumably it works well for all the joysticks and bases that VKB offers.

Coincidentally I recently flew a Robinson R44 for an hour and got the chance to compare the feel to my dampened 20cm extended GFMK2, and amazingly it was not all that different. For those looking to replicate the feel of a helicopter (by removing the springs) this grease allows me to leave the cyclic where it is and let go, mimicking the force-trim function and general feel of helicopters in flight. The other greases I tried required me to set the dampers too tight, which resulted in difficult micro adjustments and sticky resolutions.

I highly recommend the Nyogel PG-44A. It is available at several outlets in a quantity and price that is agreeable for our purposes.
Here is oveready's offer for 5grams@$15.
https://www.oveready.com/flashlight/nyo ... e-5g-tube/