Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

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Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby hon0 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 17:06

Hello, I would like to know how to get the most raw possible sensor response on the highest possible resolution. 15 Bit?
I'm still reading the manual.. For the moment I have found :
The more filtration grade you set, the more inert will be axis response. If you want
maximal sharp response set DFT=0, Filter=1


DFT looks to be a "tick case" in the Global panel, so I un-tick. And my Filter in the Profile panel is set to 1 on both X and Y.

MPL Multiplier. Binary multiplier for sensor response normalization.
Value range is 15...+15. Default value for D_MaRS is 9, for analog
sensors — 8.


This I'm not sure to understand. Together with the Precis setting, what setting should I use to get the most out of the GunFighter X and Y sensor? My testing seems to indicate that X and Y sensor are 11 bit.. Which is quite low and not enough to match the mouvement range/smoothness of an extended Gunfighter as far as I can see/feel. I can indeed move the stick and get no value registration. So I guess I'm doing something wrong? :?

Here are my actual setting :
Image

Thanks in advance,

Hon0
VKB Devcie Config v0.91.26 - Firmware version: v1.994

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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby hon0 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 21:18

Bump. :oops:

It doesn't matter if I set 11 or 15 bit, the precision doesn't increase.
The steps size just increase to match the larger scale. But if I look at the step in % using DIVIEW, I get the same "step size/precision" in 11 and in 15 bit. ~0.07% step.

VKB Device Config v0.88.89
Njoy32 Firmware 1.94B
VKB Devcie Config v0.91.26 - Firmware version: v1.994

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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby AeroGator » Sat Nov 17, 2018 14:35

In a word, 11 or 15 would not matter whatsoever because either one is already well beyond recognition by human senses.
It would matter if we were talking steering wheels as deflection angles in the wheels' world are tens of times larger than that of joysticks.
Rising the resolution to 15 bit would only force your computer to do tons of extra job the results of which you won't be able to see.
(remember that $500 2 m long copper cable between a cd player and speakers? - just about the same).
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby hon0 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 14:50

I disagree as in my experience with 11 I can move the stick without any input being registered. That mean I could benefit from higher resolution.
So, how do I setup more than 11 bit please?
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby AeroGator » Sat Nov 17, 2018 15:08

hon0 wrote:I disagree as in my experience with 11 I can move the stick without any input being registered

You sure it is not the dead zone settings? You may have extra wide dead zone. Moving the stick and not having any input is not what it should be like.
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby AeroGator » Sat Nov 17, 2018 15:29

hon0 wrote:So, how do I setup more than 11 bit please?

The picture shows you have already set the resolution to 15.

Now, does the input register when you move the grip?

But regardless, please do the following:
1 - DEFAULT the device
2 - Using VKB joytester run the main axis test: pull the grip all the way and let go; then push it all the way and let go. Then deflect it fully to the right and let go; to the left and let go.
3 - Show us the results (not "tell us the results" - show us the results).
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby hon0 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 16:19

Edit : I couldn't upload more than 3 attachments to my post so uploaded to Imgur, please right click and open image in a new tab for full resolution.

Ok I did it with both 11 and 15 bit. I only changed value for X and Y, so I'm sure why the "Step" value for other axes changed on VKB JoyTester, nor why I had 1 on X for the 11 bit test. I haven't modified the multiplier between the two test, only did a recalibration.

Below is 11 bit test. Why 1 on X and 32 on Y? Looks like X has not been fully recognized by the soft. 32 is correct for 11 bit.

Image
Image

Below is the 15 bit test.

Image
Image

X and Y step = 2, which is correct for 15 bit. But anyway, this is not on VKBJoyTester that we can see this problem, at least not on a screenshot. The things is as I said in my "bump" message :
It doesn't matter if I set 11 or 15 bit, the precision doesn't increase.
The steps size just increase to match the larger scale. But if I look at the step in % using DIVIEW, I get the same "step size/precision" in 11 and in 15 bit. ~0.07% step.


The step size increase, but not their numbers.

Edit : I could do a video demonstrating that I get the same Step size in % with both 11 and 15bit. Using DIVIEW. Let me know if it could be useful for you.
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby AeroGator » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:40

You might have defaulted the device (by the way, have you?) - but I can see that you still changed some parameters after default.
Which effectively cancelled the whole experiment.
What I need to see to be able to help is a fully defaulted device - ALL settings back to factory defaults. No tweaking/modifications whatsoever except the one and only parameter that we are working on: resolution. One and Only.
Besides, I have a strong suspicion that after moving the grip to its extreme position you didn't let it go but continued keeping your hand on the grip.
I need to see what happens when you move the grip to extreme and LET IT GO. Hand OFF it, and let it spring back.
Please re-do the whole thing.

Please have a look at this as well: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2762
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby hon0 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:46

I have redone the test after having defaulted the device, the only thing I changed was 12 to 15 bit on both X and Y for the second test. Dampener are unscrewed fully, for the moment.

Default setting, 12 bit
https://imgur.com/a/8vG2QvB

Default setting, 15 bit
https://imgur.com/a/V9G9krO

VKB Joytester seems to have some trouble to initialize the "Step" correctly. No idea why it show 1 on the 15 bit test, while it should be 2. Each time I run it I do a full deflection of each axes so that it can make the calcul, sometime it work, sometime it doesn't.

1 - Model and version of the product

VKB Gunfighter PRO (Extended) MKII rev.B + MCG PRO
2 - Controller Firmware Version

VKB Device Config v0.88.89 (Njoy32 firmware v1.95.4)
3 - Number and type of installed springs

The default one, I think 20? + 50, on both axes.
4 - type set of cams

Soft center, cam 10.
5 - If you are using software WKB, always specify the software version

VKB Device Config v0.88.89 (Njoy32 firmware v1.95.4)
If the question refers to the operation of the axes of the joystick (pedals), then in addition, please provide:
6 - Screenshot of the test from the program vkbjoytester. Download the program here:http://ftp.vkb-sim.pro/Programms/VKB_JoyTester.zip
7 - Screenshots from the vkbdevcfg-c program. Download the program here: http://ftp.vkb-sim.pro/Programms/ ; Before downloading, make sure to choose the latest version of the program.


Please see the two imgur album at the beginning of this message.

Thanks for helping on Week End ! :thumbsUp:
Last edited by hon0 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:44, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby AeroGator » Sun Nov 18, 2018 15:45

Passed your question to the engineers. Might take a couple of days though.
Please bear.
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby hon0 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 17:06

AeroGator wrote:
hon0 wrote:I disagree as in my experience with 11 I can move the stick without any input being registered

You sure it is not the dead zone settings? You may have extra wide dead zone. [...]


Oops, I missed this post. No it's not deadzone, I set both my low/center and high deadzone to 0% on both X and Y axes.

AeroGator wrote:[...] Moving the stick and not having any input is not what it should be like.


Please note that I'm not saying nor thinking I have any mechanical problem with my product. It's more likely a bug with the software, or a hardware limitation. For exemple some car pedal setup with 12bit sensor are downgraded to 8 bit when plugged through an USB adapter, while not when connected directly to the wheel.
See Fanatec : https://www.fanatec.com/eu-en/pedals/cs ... ls-eu.html (Under Special Notes on this page).

Here I'm talking about the smallest input registration possible, which is ~0.07% in 11bit (I use DIVIEW to monitor axes in %). And with an extended Gunfighter, I can indeed move within 0.07% and have no input registration. That's why I would like to increase the sensor resolution to solve this problem.
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby Sideslip » Sun Nov 18, 2018 22:29

hon0 wrote:Here I'm talking about the smallest input registration possible, which is ~0.07% in 11bit (I use DIVIEW to monitor axes in %). And with an extended Gunfighter, I can indeed move within 0.07% and have no input registration. That's why I would like to increase the sensor resolution to solve this problem.


HF is a filter that is supposed to reduce "tremor" (shaking). That might be why you can move the stick slightly without there being a change in input. Set that to 0. If you jack it up to the highest setting you can actually move the stick a ton without it registering.


Also, I would generally recommend setting precision at minimum to 12, simply because if you use a response curve you will have a finer resolution in one area and a more coarse resolution in another (that's the trade off of non-linear response). That will give you better resolution in the coarse area (but physically it will still be extremely small movements of the stick). I'm using a Gladiator Pro but I've found 14 is best for me (15 has a jitter at dead center that is not affected by deadzone or dynamic filter).

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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby hon0 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:20

Yep I would like to have at least 12 bit resolution, but unfortunately that doesn't work for me. Step size increase to match the new, larger scale. But that isn't what should happen. When we increase resolution, same as on a monitor, we insert more pixel in the same area. So we end up with more pixel/step, that are smaller. On my Gunfighter, I can observe that happening correctly Up to 11 bit, above 11bit I get no more/smaller steps.

I try to turn off all filtering effect so :

In the Global panel, I disable DF (Dynamic filtering).
In the Profile panel, I set Filter to 1 as specified in the manual.
The more filtration grade you set, the more inert will be axis response. If you want
maximal sharp response set DFT=0, Filter=1

I guess DFT is the DF tickbox in the global panel?
I set Thr to 0, even if not active cause DF is disabled.
My HF is now set to 0, even if I think it is not active cause DF is disabled.
And my MF is set to 0, not sure what this setting is for.

All info I found on MF are :
Static filtration
Uncheck DF to use static filtration (see 2.3 on p. 16). Use MF field with counter to
set filtering factor. Filtering factor for static filtering is constant in all gimbal moving
range.


And a tooltip when we mouseOver the filter field which said "Filter Grade[0=MF]".

Also this :
If Trh>0 than MF
field value is used as upper dynamic filter value.


I don't have enough info to understand, the MF field is boxed together with a Trimmer mode setting. Why? If there's a link between these two settings, I don't see it.
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby hon0 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:00

I made a little video trying to demonstrate the issue.

https://youtu.be/uFDfv5FUUCM
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Re: Sensor resolution/precision, multiplier and filtering.

Postby AeroGator » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:32

Pls remain on hold.
I'm still waiting for the engineers' feedback.
Will update you as soon as they update me.

BY THE WAY while we're waiting for feedback please double confirm that you use Gunfighter base non-pro version (no extension tube).
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