Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

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chinitoh
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Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby chinitoh » Wed Jul 11, 2018 18:33

Gladiator Pro MKII s/n is 4338f2416b f0d949e7eb f361f1ed48 dd64dfea68

Hi again. I need help with the ministicks on the MCG Pro. I've done the flashing and recalibration based off the instructions on the website. Right now, from what I understand, the ministicks can serve either as a POV digital 4 way HAT or it can be an analog X/Y axis. Currently, I can't seem to get any response from the "Gate Cont" stick. The "Master Mode" stick seems to be working fine. I can see that if you push on the button slightly longer, it changes from analog to an 8 way HAT. I would prefer to keep it as an 8 way HAT. So, here's what I need if possible:

1. Master Mode - How do I disable the long button push so that it is permanently an 8 way HAT?
2. Gate Cont - How do I make this an analog X/Y axis? Currently, it is not responding.

I've uploaded the image below which shows the current version of the VKB Config and the firmware of the Gladiator base. It's also showing the Profile tab.

Thank you,
Jeoff
Attachments
VKB DevCon 1.jpg

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Victorus
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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Victorus » Wed Jul 11, 2018 20:23

Tomorrow I will be at home, we'll try to solve problem. Right now read user guide from here http://ftp.vkb-sim.pro/Documentations/c ... _10_En.pdf.

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Victorus » Wed Jul 11, 2018 20:38


chinitoh
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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby chinitoh » Wed Jul 11, 2018 20:44

Thanks Victorus. I actually figured out #1. Saw it in an earlier post. Going to try and figure out the 2nd one. I figured it'd be the same but it isn't.

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Sideslip » Wed Jul 11, 2018 23:29

Dealing with another issue right now, but for the Gate (left thumbstick) hat, the axis is not available by default.

This is regarding the MCG non-pro, but I assume it is the same with the Pro.

Gladiator base has 3 axes > Throttle + StickX + StickY
MCG has 5 axes > Gate X/Y + Trim(master mode?) X/Y + Brake Lever (Pro also has the folding trigger, but that axis is not required to be seen by Windows for it to work as intended)

That totals 8 axes, but DCS can only work with 7 > XYZ + RotXYZ + Slider (HID Usage)

My theory is that since at least one axis will be disabled in DCS, the user might not have a separate throttle, and they might not have toe brakes, so the only option is to disable one of the thumb stick axes. They just disabled both X and Y instead of just one of them. The chip in the base still uses those axes (that's how it works as a hat switch... virtual buttons), but it doesn't report it to Windows.

On the Axes tab, the physical axes 1 and 2 are your base's X and Y and 5 is the throttle slider. Those are hardcoded in firmware and can't be changed (you could change them on the logical section by changing the AxID, but that is absolutely useless). By default axes 3 and 4 are the top thumbstick on MCG and 6 is the brake lever. These are not hardcoded, they are assigned virtually.

On the bottom, go to the Global tab, then External. Here you will have the MCG as the #1 external device (meaning it is external to the base, just like the KG12 was). Now you see another list of hardcoded axes. Axes 1 and 2 are the top thumbstick, 3 and 4 are the left thumbstick, 5 is the brake lever and 6/7 (why 2 axes?) are supposedly the folding trigger on the MCG Pro (not on the regular MCG). You will notice that axes 1 and 2 (top thumbstick) are assigned to virtual controller #1 axes 3 and 4, hence they are the physical axes 3 and 4 on the Profile Axes page. For your left thumbstick you will see it is assigned virtual controller #2 axes 2 and 3. The Gladiator can see and use virtual controller #2, but you cannot manipulate those axes nor will they be reported to windows. If you want to use that stick, you need to change them to axes on controller 1.

Remember how there are 8 axes total, but DCS can only use 7. So if you want to use the left thumbstick axes, you have to make sure it is one of the 7 available. The easiest way to do this if you don't want to use the top stick's axes, is just to switch the values of Axis 1/2 with 3/4. If you do this (and don't change anything else), you will have the left thumbstick as relative axes AND a POV, while the top stick will be a 4 way hat. The Master Mode button (absolutely useless, waste of a button) will still be on the top stick and toggle the POV on the left stick. YOU MUST RECALIBRATE FOR THE NEW AXES TO WORK PROPERLY. To change the Master Mode button to follow the new POV#1 you have to change it on the Profile>Buttons>Physical Layer page. If you are like me and want to use the left thumbstick to slew a targeting pod/laser, you will want to change axes 3/4 to absolute mode on the Profile>Axes page.

Personally I have kept the top thumstick as relative axes, left thumbstick as absolute axes and assigned the brake lever to "Dial" (HID Usage) which is not seen by DCS. So my brake lever only acts as a button. But I use toe brakes when available, and the FC aircraft don't have brake a axis anyway. That said, they also don't have trim axes. I might post my config file later after I deal with another issue.

This took me about 2+ hours to figure out yesterday. As good and configurable as the program is, it is very much unclear and all-over-the-place. The virtual controller axis becomes a physical axis which is the same logical axis unless you change the AxID to be a different physical axis.

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Sideslip » Thu Jul 12, 2018 0:14

Ok, here is my config file for the non-pro. It might screw up some buttons on the pro though, so you'll have to fix that, but the axes should be good. Note you have to re-calibrate as your stick probably will not have the same values as mine.

This has all axes used except brake will not be seen by DCS (possibly most flight sims), and with all base buttons being tempo type (so 28 buttons on base). Top hat switch button is relative axis reset. DCS has a bug at least with SU25/25T where when moving the shikval/laser in both X and Y directions simultaneously will cause it to stop in one direction until that axis is relaxed/released. It's really annoying but the axes are working properly on the calibration page. Suggest using axis tune in DCS settings to reduce the max speed and set a curve to make it easier to control.

I can't attach it so here is a link to it instead. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1otOtI8 ... sp=sharing

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby chinitoh » Thu Jul 12, 2018 0:50

Wow...this actually makes a lot of sense and I see now where I can make these changes. I definitely got the Gate stick to work as an analog in the VKB devcfg but the game still won't recognize it. Actually, I just realize that by default, it won't even recognize Master Mode in ministick mode (not 8 way hat). But I definitely see how your explanation affects the behaviour of the button. I'm going to keep tinkering around with it and see what I get and see what VKB says about the ministicks somehow not being recognized in game.

Thank you very much. :)

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Ron61 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:53

The statement that DCS sees only 7 axes is somewhat controversial, even not so - is false.
On my screenshot there are 8 axes and one invisible. The one that is responsible for the flip flop.
This is the profile for P-51. It does not have an axle of the brake lever, 2 pedals are involved (I have 3 axial pedals).
Spitfire will also have the same number of axes, but in a different configuration. For him there will be a lever axis, without pedals.
Just for each aircraft you need to create your own, specific profile.

P-51.png

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby chinitoh » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:23

Sideslip wrote:Ok, here is my config file for the non-pro. It might screw up some buttons on the pro though, so you'll have to fix that, but the axes should be good. Note you have to re-calibrate as your stick probably will not have the same values as mine.

This has all axes used except brake will not be seen by DCS (possibly most flight sims), and with all base buttons being tempo type (so 28 buttons on base). Top hat switch button is relative axis reset. DCS has a bug at least with SU25/25T where when moving the shikval/laser in both X and Y directions simultaneously will cause it to stop in one direction until that axis is relaxed/released. It's really annoying but the axes are working properly on the calibration page. Suggest using axis tune in DCS settings to reduce the max speed and set a curve to make it easier to control.

I can't attach it so here is a link to it instead. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1otOtI8 ... sp=sharing


This is interesting. Using your cfg file, the Gate ministick works as an axis in Elite Dangerous. I'd have kept it but the Master Mode switch no longer worked. I've even tried to set it back to the default and that didn't work. I'm curious why your ministick works. I've tried copying the settings pertaining to POV2 based off your cfg but it's not working. On the other hand, I did manage to get my Gate to work as a second HAT switch. I may keep it if I get tired enough of tinkering around with this. The drawback to that is that my "slew" will be a digital on/off instead of an incremental or continuous delta.

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Sideslip » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:35

Ron61 wrote:The statement that DCS sees only 7 axes is somewhat controversial, even not so - is false...


You are correct. When I was editing the axes in DCS I did not see a "slider 2" option and assumed it was not recognized. For whatever reason it is there now. It might be because I didn't restart DCS while working in the VKB Configurator. This just makes me more confused as to why they chose to disable the left thumbstick by default.

However, your screenshot shows VKB's software, not DCS.

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Sideslip » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:12

chinitoh wrote:This is interesting. Using your cfg file, the Gate ministick works as an axis in Elite Dangerous. I'd have kept it but the Master Mode switch no longer worked.


I'm a little confused as to what you refert to as the "Master Mode switch". Are you talking about the feature where holding the top thumbstick button for 1/2 a second toggles the POV functionality on/off? Or are you saying the top thumbstick doesn't work as relative axes.

The underlined section bellow is incorrect. For some reason it was working this way for me when I was experimenting, but testing it now it does not do this.
In my config, I removed the POV on/off toggle (Master Mode) because in most cases it is a useless feature (unless your game cannot rebind the POV functions... ie the POV acts as a view slew no matter what and you cannot change it). Switching POV on/off doesn't disable the axes, so if you were using the axes of the hat to control one thing (let's say elevator trim), and the POV (with the same hat) to control something else(let's say gunpod up/down), even if you "turn on" the POV mode you are still moving the axes (both gunpod would move AND elevator trim would change). So for that reason, I reassigned the top thumbstick's button to "reset" it's relative axes back to center. So to recap: A) the left stick (Gate) are absolute axes with an 8-way POV and pressing it is seen as a normal button. B) the top stick (Master) are relative axes and a 4-way switch/button and pressing it resets the relative axes to center.

If you want the POV on/off toggle, you need to set that on the "Buttons" "Physical Layer" page.

If you are saying that the top thumbstick doesn't work as an axis, be aware that since it is relative it takes about 3 seconds maybe for it to go from the center to one extreme or the other. When binding controls in a game, often you have to move the axis to both limits. So you have to hold one direction for a few seconds, then the other direction long enough for it to be registered. This is not a problem with the left thumbstick because being absolute, it instantly reaches the limits.

Also, double check your buttons, because while my top thumbstick button may be Reg#8 Line6 in the MCG firmware, on the MCG Pro firmware it is possible it is not in the same place.

HAT 1.jpg
HAT 2.jpg
HAT 3.jpg

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Sideslip » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:35

Also while experimenting, you might be interested to know that you can have the top button be a 4-way hat with a center button AND hold to toggle relative axes mode (and disable the 4-way, button press remains). Just set it to "Tempo B". You also either want to change the button number or bump up the starting number of the hat from 52 to 53.

You can instead set it to "Button Alt" to have it switch with a single press instead of having to hold it, but you loose the center button press of course.

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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby Ron61 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:39

Sideslip wrote:However, your screenshot shows VKB's software, not DCS.

I thought that we are gentlemen - we are supposed to believe the word of a gentleman :) . Correcting. Do not be surprised at the glued screenshot - it is not possible to fully capture the settings screen of all axes in DCS. And do not forget the ninth axis on the flip-flop.
P-51 - profil.png

P-51.png

chinitoh
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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby chinitoh » Thu Jul 12, 2018 14:18

EDIT: Good lord! After posting this, I think I just figured it out. I think I just needed to sleep it off since I was at it late last night. I'll post again of my findings.

@Sideslip

Forgive me, I'm still wrapping my head around this. I had a long conversation with Ron yesterday about another problem and I'm just getting over that one. I've been referencing the nJoy controller guide and picking up things along the way but it's still quite technical. I'm still having to understand what the difference is between absolute and relative axis. In simple terms, here's what I want:

1. Top/Centre ministick (labeled as "Master Mode") to work as either an 8 or 4 way HAT. Right now, I have this completely set up the way it is. All I did was change the "Active" field in Profile > POV's tab from "On/Off" to "Always". I kept the physical layer button at default set to uSSW Tempo POV1. I am completely fine with this.

2. The left/thumb ministick (labeled as "Gate Cont") is currently set up to work similar to the POV1 or top/centre stick. So now I have two HATs. While at least now I have feedback from this stick unlike before where it did not do anything, I would prefer that this stick work as an analog axis. Best description of what I mean? The analog thumb ministick on the CH Throttle Pro. For some reason, you got your config file to work like this but your config file disabled the top/centre stick. My left stick worked like yours but the top/centre no longer was recognized. So what I did was, I loaded your config file, took screenshots of every single screen and used that as reference to build my left stick around my config file so as not to sacrifice or lose functionality on the buttons that currently work. Despite that, I couldn't get my left stick to work like yours. I suspect it may have something to do with the 8th axis that you have activated. But having tinkered with it enough times, I managed to get my left stick working as a HAT like the top stick.

Anyway, here are screenshots of my current config:
Attachments
vkbcfg Jeoff 2.jpg
vkbcfg Jeoff 3.jpg
vkbcfg Jeoff 1.jpg
Last edited by chinitoh on Thu Jul 12, 2018 14:38, edited 2 times in total.

chinitoh
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Re: Gladiator Pro MKII & MCG Pro Ministicks

Postby chinitoh » Thu Jul 12, 2018 14:20

More screenshots from my config:
Attachments
vkbcfg Jeoff 5.jpg
vkbcfg Jeoff 6.jpg
vkbcfg Jeoff 4.jpg


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